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Old 09-11-2018, 20:04   #61
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For someone who thinks of themselves as a deep thinker, you seem awfully predisposed to shit pictorial memes

You need better education.
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Old 09-11-2018, 20:08   #62
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Just sharing lols, we can have a debate about freedom if you like.
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Old 09-11-2018, 20:15   #63
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So tell us how left wing government produces more deaths than other forms.

And please pretty please, do a bit more than googling 'left wing government deaths' and splattering the results into a post, you stupid shallow fuck nugget.
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Old 09-11-2018, 20:26   #64
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Have I said such a thing?

Off the top of my head though, Communism was responsible for 100m or so deaths, Fascism 15m maybe?

That said I don't really care for the left/right split, it is far less meaningful to freedom than the authoritarian/libertarian axis. I am concerned that the boring centre is crumbling and we're entering a phase where we'll get far left rhetoric gaining further traction in such a disparate world. Which will then produce a counter reaction of the more extreme right as the chaos of the left will collide with the militaristic order of the right and we get a replay of the Spanish Civil war.

Personally I'm not a fascist or a commie and the idea of giving the government more power over the individual is the reason why.
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We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turning, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man.

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Old 10-11-2018, 11:39   #65
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That communism = 100m dead is daft though because it casts a wide net regarding poverty and starvation which, although you can say that's fair, assumes capitalism (what I suppose is the 'better' choice) causes little to no death itself, which is obviously false.

We try and dress it up but the reality is capitalism by the same measure has a huge death toll. It has been the driver of war too many times to count, it has increased inequality with access to health care, affordable housing etc. We can't just give it a free pass and ignore the deaths this has directly or indirectly caused.

I'm not interested in arguing the pros of communism, it is a poor ideology, but so is capitalism. Either of them in their purest forms (or as pure as you can get) are dangerous. It's about finding the balance and so far we settle for what feels like the least worst option but not convinced the balance is right, at least not in the UK/US.
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:44   #66
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The problem is I see people labelling themselves socialists because they're high minded idealists who border on utopians (maybe I'm just sadly more cynical with age ); holding onto concepts like fairness and equality in a world that will never be either of those things. That said the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good (or even the better) and I agree those ideals are good things but the devil is in the detail.

It's why middle England historically prefers to be governed by heartless Tory scumbags than bleeding heart Labour idealists. It's why we've had nearly 40 years of the Thatcherite/Neoliberal consensus with its dominance of market based thinking. Though now we're at a point where the next generations will have to peddle harder for less return; as the beige heartless managerialism of maintaining the status quo is in itself becoming a harder task and that only radicalism can hope to deliver contentment for the majority.

I guess to an extent the term Socialist has begun to mean those against Neoliberalism but we're stuck in this debt based system that relies on consumerism at the expense of sustainability. I think our system would need less radicalism if the values of society were higher but the debt problems are so deep that consumption needs to be high to chase our tails; hence the hyper individualist nihilism is now almost needed to achieve that growth.

Perhaps it's also used just for describing a larger state, but where does it end? It's why as much as I used to abhor the beige politics of centrists I do see the sense in the slow push and pull of slight changes promoting stability in the size and scope of the state. I do wonder when it comes down to it the sustainability and deterioration of the fundamentals that underpin the entire system will render its management ineffectual.

Barbarism or socialism has been the cry and perhaps they're right, but I've not been convinced of quite what socialism means in the 21st century. Simply a larger state, with a smarter tax base that stops corporate profits flowing into tax havens; or do we arrive back at Thatchers point about running out of other people's money? Does socialism simply always devolve into barbarism (as my 'shit pictorial meme' represents) as utopian ideals clash with reality?

The bottom line is balancing the individual with the collective, which is why I've become wary of the idea of Socialism as I see the propensity of slanting that equation too far to the collective. With that said I agree with many of its sentiments and that we have gone too far in favouring the individual and perhaps a radical rebalancing needs to occur.
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We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turning, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man.

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Old 13-11-2018, 19:17   #67
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There's a thread on SF about socialism at the moment. I like this post:

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Real genuine or authentic socialism is not about living off of others parasitic and getting everything for free, it's about equal opportunity along with creating a conducive balanced system where everybody thrives moving away from private cannibalizing business interests that gorge themselves on society for profit at the majority's expense. Socialism especially the national variety is where the majority's well being, happiness, stability, and security comes first over profit incentives.

Any nation or society that values profit and money over everything else is doomed to failure and collapse. It is that decadent corruptible value system that has brought us where we are currently. Such a self destructive system abandons the very thing that makes us human transforming us into mere wheels or cogs of a perverted system where everyone is reduced to replaceable parts. Such a system is one of isolation, alienation, and dehumanization which rips a part entire communities of people.
/awaits Visage, iam or natwee to say something something irony
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Old 13-11-2018, 19:52   #68
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I agree with most of that but I am also cognisant of the fact that the profit motive acts as a carrot on a string and that socialism is more about the stick.
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We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turning, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man.

C.S. Lewis
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