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Old 14-06-2018, 12:04   #3781
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Video not working? GO OLDSKOOL! Or just give up. N* is bound to post a better vid.



Good speech by Caroline Flint with a hilarious follow up by Anna Soubry. You can see the clear divide where an establishment politician who want us to leave in all but name only is prepared to continue the misrepresentation of calls for controls over immigration as simply fuelled by misinformation and xenophobia.
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Old 14-06-2018, 12:25   #3782
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Well, they are to a large extent. When the public has been polled on immigration specifically they're way off the facts and mostly repeat stuff they've heard in the tabloids, on facebook memes and down the pub. Seen it personally as well.

Look at them saying stuff like a third of the country is muslim, 10% of our gdp goes on foreign aid, we can't stop them claiming dole the day they arrive etc.

In fact, it's easy to troll because you can pretend to advocate brexit and list the immigration controls we already have on EU migrants (but never bother using) as things we'll get soon, and watch them agree it's why we need to leave.
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Old 14-06-2018, 12:33   #3783
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If people's concerns are simply that EU citizens come over and leech benefits then the existing controls do indeed cover that problem, but that isn't the primary issue; the issue is simply the high number that strains our infrastructure.
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Old 14-06-2018, 12:54   #3784
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Video not working? GO OLDSKOOL! Or just give up. N* is bound to post a better vid.

You can see the clear divide where an establishment politician
The establishment politicians are the ones that want a hard brexit now. Those who want to remain in the EEA are the anti-establishment ones.
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This is now serious business.
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Old 14-06-2018, 12:58   #3785
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FWIW I don't think all leave voters are like that obviously, I have friends who voted leave and they articulated their reasons well even if I didn't personally agree. The issue is because the margin between leave and remain was so close, you don't exactly need to acknowledge much more than a minority of misinformed people in order to make a case that the vote loses its mandate for crashing out the single market etc.

A brexit that reflects the narrowness of the vote and the misleading campaign sounds reasonable, and the campaign was misleading, the official campaign's main pledge has become a parody, and even though Leave.EU wasn't the official one, it's one I saw getting the most traction socially and had some of the biggest whoppers. Even Arron Banks who was behind that one openly admits he was leading people up the garden path in order to get them to vote for brexit.
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Old 14-06-2018, 13:08   #3786
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Democracy has its drawbacks, the mob is fickle and gullible; I'm sure there were plenty of people who voted remain who were as simple minded as those that swallowed the leave rhetoric.

With the EEA off the table perhaps they'll be more pressure on the EU to loosen their stance; as a 'soft-Brexit' isn't really on the table without it. I'd rather we stayed as a full member than that compromise, maybe EU reform is the answer and the increasing anti-EU sway on the continent can deliver real change.
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Old 14-06-2018, 13:23   #3787
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The establishment politicians are the ones that want a hard brexit now. Those who want to remain in the EEA are the anti-establishment ones.
there aren't any true anti-establishment MPs. Corbyn might be the closest.
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Old 14-06-2018, 13:26   #3788
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Chuka Umuna is another innit.
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Old 14-06-2018, 13:36   #3789
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Originally Posted by Stagflation View Post
Democracy has its drawbacks, the mob is fickle and gullible; I'm sure there were plenty of people who voted remain who were as simple minded as those that swallowed the leave rhetoric.

With the EEA off the table perhaps they'll be more pressure on the EU to loosen their stance; as a 'soft-Brexit' isn't really on the table without it. I'd rather we stayed as a full member than that compromise, maybe EU reform is the answer and the increasing anti-EU sway on the continent can deliver real change.
The EEA isnt off the table. This is only votes on the law to withdrawn from the EU. The lords has only thrown those clauses in because the Tories refuse to allow discussion in parliament. The crucial ones come further down the line. Parliament votes on a trade bill which could be amended to force us to remain within elements of the EEA.

Ultimately though it looks like the tactics will be to just wait until the vote of the negotiated deal go to parliament. If its binned at that point, any outcome is possible - No deal, EEA, extension of A50 or second referendum.

Also, even if the governments deal is agreed on, the backstop is basically EEA.

But I agree that we are better off staying in than virtually any negotiated outcome. I can only see that happening off the back of a vote on the deal but the public though.
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Threads are being trashed and derailed with petty squabbles and insults. Nobody minds a bit of banter but it soon descends into insults and the thread is ruined.

Neither myself or iam want to spend hours cleaning threads up and dealing with RTM's so do us a favour and reign it in a bit please.

This is now serious business.
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Old 14-06-2018, 14:20   #3790
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The European Union is stepping up its Brexit “preparedness” plans by declaring its intent to fund new shipping routes between Ireland and Northern Europe that bypass Britain.
LOL
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