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Old 29-10-2018, 11:50   #4941
Malcolm Tucker
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"Friendship with all nations"

When you have to go out of your way to say it on your currency, something has gone wrong.

What's the new passport going to have written inside? "One of my best friends is black" ?
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Old 29-10-2018, 11:52   #4942
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Friendship with all nations

*except the ones Israel told us to be enemies with
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Old 29-10-2018, 11:53   #4943
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Yes we know the current regime in London has no interest in true sovereignty, but then TBF nor do you
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Old 29-10-2018, 11:58   #4944
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"True sovereignty" is a misnomer though. It means whatever you want it to mean in a modern world because it lost its 'trueness' a long time ago. Say we do the full brexit you want, we're still no more "free" and "sovereign" than before. We just have it shared with something else. If you want even basic trade, some degree of sovereignty is lost in favour of a common or shared governance for that trade.

100% undiluted sovereignty means a completely self-reliant nation that trades with virtually nobody, just those stupid enough to abide by 100% of our say-so and be given zero compromise back. In that version of Britain you'd probably be homeless or dead, like quite a lot of people, so, are you sure?
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Old 29-10-2018, 12:00   #4945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Tucker View Post
"Friendship with all nations"

When you have to go out of your way to say it on your currency, something has gone wrong.

What's the new passport going to have written inside? "One of my best friends is black" ?
Alternative slogan: 'YOU LOST, GET OVER IT'
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Old 29-10-2018, 12:03   #4946
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Originally Posted by Malcolm Tucker View Post
"True sovereignty" is a misnomer though. It means whatever you want it to mean in a modern world because it lost its 'trueness' a long time ago. Say we do the full brexit you want, we're still no more "free" and "sovereign" than before. We just have it shared with something else. If you want even basic trade, some degree of sovereignty is lost in favour of a common or shared governance for that trade.

100% undiluted sovereignty means a completely self-reliant nation that trades with virtually nobody, just those willing to abide by 100% of our say-so and be given zero compromise back. In that version of Britain you'd probably be homeless or dead, like quite a lot of people, so, are you sure?
One of the biggest threats to national sovereignty in the modern world is impoverishment. It reduces your power, and puts you at a disadvantage when dealing with others. You end up acceding to demands rather than making them.

We've gone from being one of the three powers that control the worlds largest geopolitical bloc to grubbing around for trade deals with third world countries who know we're desperate. So yea, Rule Britannia, right?
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Old 29-10-2018, 12:23   #4947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Tucker View Post
"True sovereignty" is a misnomer though. It means whatever you want it to mean in a modern world because it lost its 'trueness' a long time ago. Say we do the full brexit you want, we're still no more "free" and "sovereign" than before. We just have it shared with something else. If you want even basic trade, some degree of sovereignty is lost in favour of a common or shared governance for that trade.

100% undiluted sovereignty means a completely self-reliant nation that trades with virtually nobody, just those stupid enough to abide by 100% of our say-so and be given zero compromise back. In that version of Britain you'd probably be homeless or dead, like quite a lot of people, so, are you sure?
As so often, you fall into the trap of the perfect solution fallacy. Yes, no solution is perfect and LITERALLY 100% sovereignty may be impossible, but you can get a lot closer than we have now, or would have under your system. A country run for us, not for foreigners and corporations, with 'us' as an afterthought, fed what crumbs we need to get us to be compliant. You don't mind because you're getting enough crumbs and 'prosperity' is all you give a shit about.
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Old 29-10-2018, 12:32   #4948
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I'm not falling for anything, I'm well aware of the pragmatism behind claims of sovereignty. We have lost some over the centuries, as has every nation. Words about restoring it are just that, words. Look at your own rant, it's undefinable and you can't actually say if we're sovereign "enough" based on anything but your own terms? Yet others are supposed to just accept that as some kind of answer?

You're just talking in vague platitudes; 'A country run for us, not for foreigners and corporations' is textbook doublespeak. How can it mean anything in practical terms, in the real world? No corporations doing trade? Just 10? 5? 500? You may as well say 'Not a penny of tax wasted, our money, working for us' - it's a nice aspiration, but says nothing about the practicality of what it would mean, how it would happen and ultimately to what end.

By the way, with the exact same logic earlier about at least improving our level of sovereignty, I can reasonably assert that WTO trade makes us LESS sovereign, not more. We're a smaller fisher in a bigger pond. The EU was a product of pooled sovereignty, but it's obvious to everyone but the most blinkered that we had influence. It just didn't go our way every time.
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Old 29-10-2018, 12:39   #4949
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Ironically enough, we're leaving the EU because it wasn't 100% perfect...
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Old 29-10-2018, 13:26   #4950
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The rationale for leaving being that it would be less imperfect than remaining, obviously. Not that it would be close to perfect.
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