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Old 24-02-2016, 14:21   #11
Malcolm Tucker
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Originally Posted by Enoch Powell View Post
How can someone be comfortable living on £100 a week, you may ask? Well, they aren't living on £100 a week, is the answer. They are probably living on the equivalent of £300, £400, £500 a week, whatever the prevailing rate of local housing allowance deems their rent can be, and so on. But those aren't great wages, you may say. No, they aren't. But they may be equal to or greater than what the person on benefits would get in work, so their imperative to get a job and work their ass off to get what they currently receive for doing nothing, is pretty obviously not going to be terribly high. So on the face of it, the government's claims stand up to scrutiny
The obvious problem for me with ever being able to get on board with the idea that people on benefits are 'well off' is that deep down, I don't envy them, at all. I can't say I actually would prefer to be in their shoes. Or that I wouldn't worry about making ends meet if I did lose my job.

I suspect Northerner would not swap with them either, despite making out they are coasting along on free handouts. Would any of us swap? We say we prefer to work, why? Work ethic? We could be quite comfortable on benefits but we are too honest? I don't buy it. I think we know deep down we wouldn't be comfortable on them at all, so why do we propose others are? Easier to tolerate the policy if we can convince ourselves that people on benefits have it coming, probably.
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:24   #12
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What's WRAG?
Work Related Activity Group.
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:25   #13
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The trouble with that is that when people aren't working there is more time to ask what the fuck the government are doing...
And more time to ask what the fuck we ourselves are doing with our lives and our existence. I think that they don't want us to think, they just want us to go to work, pay our taxes, consume, and basically stfu and do as we're told.
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:31   #14
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The obvious problem for me with ever being able to get on board with the idea that people on benefits are 'well off' is that deep down, I don't envy them, at all. I can't say I actually would prefer to be in their shoes. Or what I wouldn't worry about making ends meet if I did lose my job. I suspect Northerner would not swap with them either, despite making out they are coasting along on free handouts. Would any of us do it? We say we prefer to work, why? Work ethic? We could be quite comfortable on benefits but we are too honest? I don't buy it. I think we know deep down we wouldn't be comfortable on them at all, so why do we propose others are? Easier to tolerate the policy if we can convince ourselves that people on benefits have it coming, probably.
People on benefits range between dirt poor and what many would consider very well off (plenty of spending money, high quality house in a nice area, new car) and everything in between. Much like people who work. Nobody (well, not me) is saying everyone on benefits is well off. Let's not shift the goal posts because there are a wide range of different issues here, let's not conflate them.

Plenty of people are as comfortable on benefits, or more so, than they would be in some shit low paid job which is all they would be doing if not on benefits. Man up and get a better job then? Not everyone can. Or wants to put the effort in if they are comfortable enough as they are. If you don't like that people make that choice, then you need to toughen up the benefits regime. The 'stick'.

It comes back to the philosophical debate over what people 'should' do with their lives. What society expects and demands of us. And who gets to decide this etc.

I hope you'd agree with the principle that if x amount of money is deemed enough to live off for those out of work and 'not sick' then there is no need for someone 'sick' to get paid 50% more, unless they have specific sickness related costs they incur.
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:43   #15
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Well when I say 'on benefits' I'm talking really about JSA/ESA claimants, as opposed to those claiming in-work benefits such as tax credits, who yes, circumstances can vary to the point I'm sure there are examples that are at odds to the philosophy of welfare and you could remove their support without impacting their quality of life one iota. I don't think they make up the lionshare of "benefit claimants" though.

People on JSA/ESA are the usual target of scorn, especially from welfare ministers. "The man getting up to go to work at 7am, looking up at his neighbours window and seeing them sleeping away a life on benefits"

It paints a picture, that the voters seem to believe, that there's an army of people sitting around on their backsides scoffing ferro rocher and playing playstation all day and generally having no worries, least not about income. The Daily Mail constantly track down and exhibit these people I'm sure, because outrage sells, but I don't think these people are in any significant number, certainly not enough to threaten the sustainability of the economy.
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:44   #16
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Work Related Activity Group.
Which is what?
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:48   #17
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So, to me and correct me if my logic is faulty, it seems to follow that either WRAG ESA should be reduced to be the same level as JSA, or JSA should be raised to same level as WRAG ESA. The current system is a contradiction.
Why don't you include the ESA support group in that? If WRAG had to have their money cut, then so should those in the support group.
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Old 24-02-2016, 14:58   #18
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A rich economy should just do a universal income that allows anybody enough to live, including with a disability, and just ditch all the associated admin and loopholes

people say nobody will work again because they'll have no need, well, I actually think due to the way that even a 'crap' job will allow you to earn significantly more than you ever will on the universal income, the financial incentive will be too great for the majority to pass up

shame it will never happen in britain, we're too cynical and pro-business to even listen to the idea, it just gets scoffed at without a proper debate
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Old 24-02-2016, 15:12   #19
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Well when I say 'on benefits' I'm talking really about JSA/ESA claimants
So was I.
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Old 24-02-2016, 15:13   #20
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Why don't you include the ESA support group in that? If WRAG had to have their money cut, then so should those in the support group.
I agree.
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