We are not afraid Current Bitcoin Price: $

Go Back   Shoe Vomit > Public Forums > Serious Business

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-01-2016, 17:37   #21
Frank Castle
I’LL FUCK YOU UP
 
Frank Castle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,483
Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Frank Castle is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Owen Jones needs nailing, preferably to a wooden cross, the hideous fucking queer liberal cunt
Frank Castle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 19:09   #22
Malcolm Tucker
The Enforcer
 
Malcolm Tucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 79,508
Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSultanOfShoeVomit View Post
I think the biggest problem I have with what you just said is that it sounds like you're advocating the usual pack of cronies... I felt that Corbyn wasn't going to offer that. Also, it's unsurprising how you prize policies when it suits you, but now seem to think that policies aren't enough and obedient support is required.
Far from it, I'm just stating the reality. You can't have a divided opposition. A bit of fallout after the leadership contest, fine, but months later and they're still openly talking like this is just a temporary thing they're putting up with. I'm not saying Corbyn has to surrender his principles and just appease his MPs, but one way or another he needs a united party and that starts with the cabinet.

I think he's given a lot of leeway and got very little back and a time will come, IMO, where he will need to decide to either trundle on with a cabinet that directly contradicts him in interviews (in an election campaign it's just a shambles) and hope the electorate somehow see through the fog and go for him. Or, he says to 'to hell with it' recognises sometimes kindness is weakness, and puts in his own dream team cabinet that will back him. Labour MPs will then have to put up or shut up. Risky, but ultimately as leader I think he's within his rights to have a cabinet he believe is the strongest leadership for the party. So far he's clearly giving them the benefit of the doubt and hoping they'll have healthy, private debates on policy, agree on positions and then be united publicly over them. So far it seems a distant ambition, where I think MPs are willing to make absolutely no compromise for their leader and the new membership, but also wish to remain as the voice of Labour on the radio and the TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSultanOfShoeVomit View Post
Also, it doesn't address that I don't need Owen Jones telling me how to think and that his writing is a false dilemma.
Well it's an opinion piece, and I think the false dilemma is apparent when you suggest you can do both, I don't think people have the enthusiasm or appetite to have the political agenda so full of things that everything gets equal attention, or wrath. It's evident that the Tory PR machine takes full advantage of Labour filling the headlines with their in-fighting.
__________________
If it walks like a Nazi,
talks like a Nazi,
salutes like a Nazi,
it's probably an FBIPLANTBYJEWSWHOALSODID911BTW
Malcolm Tucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 19:13   #23
Visage
Lord Lucan
 
AKA: Bakez
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 46,032
Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Visage is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Enoch deleting posts already. If someone says somethingretarded can we no longer point it out?
__________________
Visage is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 19:17   #24
TheSultanOfShoeVomit
Going for a swim
 
TheSultanOfShoeVomit's Avatar
 
AKA: Starkweather
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 52,398
TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Tucker View Post
Far from it, I'm just stating the reality. You can't have a divided opposition. A bit of fallout after the leadership contest, fine, but months later and they're still openly talking like this is just a temporary thing they're putting up with. I'm not saying Corbyn has to surrender his principles and just appease his MPs, but one way or another he needs a united party and that starts with the cabinet.
You haven't explained why your have the position you do, or provided specific examples that support your argument.

Quote:
I think he's given a lot of leeway and got very little back and a time will come, IMO, where he will need to decide to either trundle on with a cabinet that directly contradicts him in interviews (in an election campaign it's just a shambles) and hope the electorate somehow see through the fog and go for him. Or, he says to 'to hell with it' recognises sometimes kindness is weakness, and puts in his own dream team cabinet that will back him. Labour MPs will then have to put up or shut up. Risky, but ultimately as leader I think he's within his rights to have a cabinet he believe is the strongest leadership for the party. So far he's clearly giving them the benefit of the doubt and hoping they'll have healthy, private debates on policy, agree on positions and then be united publicly over them. So far it seems a distant ambition, where I think MPs are willing to make absolutely no compromise for their leader and the new membership, but also wish to remain.
I think it's stupid for his cabinet not to back him, and I feel that's because they don't realise his potential for support from the electorate. But also, these attitudes of cronyism are the problems that I hoped he was a departure from. I think you may be judging him too quickly in thinking that the dissent is a serious problem, given the nature of the Labour party, it seems like a necessary stage through which he must progress before finding a cabinet that is more capable and offers what the Tories do not. I don't think it's a problem.

Quote:
Well it's an opinion piece, and I think the false dilemma is apparent when you suggest you can do both, I don't think people have the enthusiasm or appetite to have the political agenda so full of things that everything gets equal attention, or wrath. It's evident that the Tory PR machine takes full advantage of Labour filling the headlines with their in-fighting.
Do you think the electorate is so informed, particualrly at this stage in the election cycle, that a few extra opinions will be that deleterious? Also, incumbents lose elections, rather than opposition wins them, and I don't think at this stage that conflict within the Labour party will really have any effect by the time the election comes. I think it's good to have a process of evolution in the mean time, rather than be scared of change and request control. If you want control, vote Tory.

Also, I think people want MPs to be a bit more human and a bit more human. Remember 'these strikes are wrong'? Being on message can also work against candidates...
__________________
TheSultanOfShoeVomit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 19:21   #25
Enoch Powell
Putinbot, obviously
 
Enoch Powell's Avatar
 
AKA: ENOCH POWELL
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 97,018
Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Enoch Powell is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

I think people like Hillary Benn have such a profoundly different world view to Corbyn that they cannot reasonably hold high profile important roles in the shadow cabinet. Corbyn is essentially pacifist and non-interventionist, Benn is the opposite. Then again, rumours are that Benn will keep his job in this re-shuffle, meaning either Corbyn disagrees with my analysis or he has some other reason for not removing him.
__________________
Enoch Powell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 19:34   #26
Chuckles
happy
 
Chuckles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 44,254
Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSultanOfShoeVomit View Post
Labour’s war of attrition must end – or the Tories will keep running amok
You don't think that's a problem? The only reason they backed down on ditching top ups for people on low incomes was because the press turned against them. Half the PLP couldn't even bring themselves to vote against it initially.

Anyway, all I was really agreeing with about him with is that they need to come to an agreement where the shadow cabinet stop trying to tear him to sheds publicly and in return he reins in some of the things he says. The press are going to tear him to shreds unfairly at every opportunity because he represents a danger to them.
__________________
Threads are being trashed and derailed with petty squabbles and insults. Nobody minds a bit of banter but it soon descends into insults and the thread is ruined.

Neither myself or iam want to spend hours cleaning threads up and dealing with RTM's so do us a favour and reign it in a bit please.

This is now serious business.
Chuckles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 19:36   #27
Malcolm Tucker
The Enforcer
 
Malcolm Tucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 79,508
Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Malcolm Tucker is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSultanOfShoeVomit View Post
You haven't explained why your have the position you do, or provided specific examples that support your argument.
Because when a political party is divided it sends out a message of incompetence to voters, and weak leadership, even if it's healthy division as a reflection of a party changing its views over time. There's two examples, both recent. John Major's government was torn apart by in-fighting over Europe, and Labour absolutely capitalised on it. Remember Blair's attack? 'Weak. Weak. Weak' - he touched on the public mood that Major was a weak leader, and if he couldn't lead a party, how was he supposed to be leading a country? There's all very rational and fair arguments as to why that's horsepiss, but it doesn't matter, divided parties don't win, or they're just extremely unlikely to.

Second example is the most recent election. Labour was more united than it is now, but it still slipped up a few times, with cracks forming in the way they'd handle the economy if they won. In contrast the Conservatives had a single message, from minister to councillor they said the same thing, their message was bullshit and wrong but it was simple and stuck. Not just on the economy, but on Scotland, or on trident. Voters could disagree on certain things but they knew what the Conservative message was. Labour's was more vague. The cracks in the leadership, however small, were prized open by the Tories and the right wing press.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSultanOfShoeVomit View Post
I think it's stupid for his cabinet not to back him, and I feel that's because they don't realise his potential for support from the electorate. But also, these attitudes of cronyism are the problems that I hoped he was a departure from. I think you may be judging him too quickly in thinking that the dissent is a serious problem, given the nature of the Labour party, it seems like a necessary stage through which he must progress before finding a cabinet that is more capable and offers what the Tories do not. I don't think it's a problem.

Do you think the electorate is so informed, particualrly at this stage in the election cycle, that a few extra opinions will be that deleterious? Also, incumbents lose elections, rather than opposition wins them, and I don't think at this stage that conflict within the Labour party will really have any effect by the time the election comes. I think it's good to have a process of evolution in the mean time, rather than be scared of change and request control. If you want control, vote Tory.

Also, I think people want MPs to be a bit more human and a bit more human. Remember 'these strikes are wrong'? Being on message can also work against candidates...
Well I'd like to think there's a happy medium, where you have a party that has arrived at policy through democratic process and THEN promotes it with clarity and coherency in an election. I wouldn't want Labour to turn back into another polished Alistair Campbell powered machine, but it can't survive as a sixth form debate club either. It is early days I suppose but it's difficult to be optimistic that Corbyn can slowly arrive at a great manifesto, genuinely backed by members and MPs when he has the sword of damocles over his head by those very MPs. The by-election has only postponed their revolt I think.
__________________
If it walks like a Nazi,
talks like a Nazi,
salutes like a Nazi,
it's probably an FBIPLANTBYJEWSWHOALSODID911BTW
Malcolm Tucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 19:45   #28
TheSultanOfShoeVomit
Going for a swim
 
TheSultanOfShoeVomit's Avatar
 
AKA: Starkweather
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 52,398
TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckles View Post
You don't think that's a problem? The only reason they backed down on ditching top ups for people on low incomes was because the press turned against them. Half the PLP couldn't even bring themselves to vote against it initially.
Are you referring to tax credit vote?

Quote:
Anyway, all I was really agreeing with about him with is that they need to come to an agreement where the shadow cabinet stop trying to tear him to sheds publicly and in return he reins in some of the things he says. The press are going to tear him to shreds unfairly at every opportunity because he represents a danger to them.
The press did that before the leadership election and he still won.
__________________
TheSultanOfShoeVomit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 20:04   #29
TheSultanOfShoeVomit
Going for a swim
 
TheSultanOfShoeVomit's Avatar
 
AKA: Starkweather
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 52,398
TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.TheSultanOfShoeVomit is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Tucker View Post
Because when a political party is divided it sends out a message of incompetence to voters, and weak leadership, even if it's healthy division as a reflection of a party changing its views over time. There's two examples, both recent. John Major's government was torn apart by in-fighting over Europe, and Labour absolutely capitalised on it. Remember Blair's attack? 'Weak. Weak. Weak' - he touched on the public mood that Major was a weak leader, and if he couldn't lead a party, how was he supposed to be leading a country? There's all very rational and fair arguments as to why that's horsepiss, but it doesn't matter, divided parties don't win, or they're just extremely unlikely to.

Second example is the most recent election. Labour was more united than it is now, but it still slipped up a few times, with cracks forming in the way they'd handle the economy if they won. In contrast the Conservatives had a single message, from minister to councillor they said the same thing, their message was bullshit and wrong but it was simple and stuck. Not just on the economy, but on Scotland, or on trident. Voters could disagree on certain things but they knew what the Conservative message was. Labour's was more vague. The cracks in the leadership, however small, were prized open by the Tories and the right wing press.
All valid points although obviously there were more factors to who won and lost than just how 'on message' they were...

Quote:
Well I'd like to think there's a happy medium, where you have a party that has arrived at policy through democratic process and THEN promotes it with clarity and coherency in an election. I wouldn't want Labour to turn back into another polished Alistair Campbell powered machine, but it can't survive as a sixth form debate club either. It is early days I suppose but it's difficult to be optimistic that Corbyn can slowly arrive at a great manifesto, genuinely backed by members and MPs when he has the sword of damocles over his head by those very MPs. The by-election has only postponed their revolt I think.
Okay, so my question is... given that Corbyn has promised change, do you think he may expect this dissent in the short term, and that this dissent may indeed be necessary? When there was a Syria vote, there was dissent in the shadow cabinet but if you ask me, if you're Labour and you're voting to bomb Syria, you might as well be in the Tory cabinet because that particular action has a neoliberal step-on-the-proles attitude about it... these same people objected to Corbyn appealing to your average rank and file member for support... perhaps grassroots action is more important to Corbyn than solidarity, and if that's the direction he's going in, he may consider a cronyistic shadow cabinet to be a short term measure until he can work towards a better model
__________________
TheSultanOfShoeVomit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 20:10   #30
Chuckles
happy
 
Chuckles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 44,254
Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.Chuckles is a cheating bobble-hatted mincebag.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSultanOfShoeVomit View Post
Are you referring to tax credit vote?
yeah

Quote:
The press did that before the leadership election and he still won.
that election was only for labour members. Doesn't really compare
__________________
Threads are being trashed and derailed with petty squabbles and insults. Nobody minds a bit of banter but it soon descends into insults and the thread is ruined.

Neither myself or iam want to spend hours cleaning threads up and dealing with RTM's so do us a favour and reign it in a bit please.

This is now serious business.
Chuckles is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 21:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.