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Old 18-06-2018, 23:14   #21
Northerner
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Originally Posted by Malcolm Tucker View Post
They have put it away, it's underneath their clothes. This isn't about someone parading around in a bikini, it's someone wearing completely reasonable clothing but having specific and elaborate measures taken by another to take a photograph of up their skirt or dress.
The wording is shit

Quote:
(b) without any reasonable belief that B consents,
Women are totally different people when sober or drunk.

The wording is, as expected ill conceived.
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Old 18-06-2018, 23:19   #22
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Originally Posted by Enoch Powell View Post
If something is there to be seen in public, if you are choosing to put it on display, I don't think it is right to criminalise looking at it. And that includes photos. If you don't want people to see something, put it away.
so if someone clearly and deliberately photographed your debit card when you had it out to pay, using an elaborate method to obtain a clear shot of it, you'd accept that was ok?

I doubt it, you'd have an absolute fit and want the photo deleted, you'd accuse them of using the picture for nefarious purposes and you'd be right to do so

other laws supersede the claim a victim has no recourse due to something taking place in public
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Old 18-06-2018, 23:24   #23
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so if someone clearly and deliberately photographed your debit card when you had it out to pay, using an elaborate method to obtain a clear shot of it, you'd accept that was ok?

I doubt it, you'd have an absolute fit and want the photo deleted, you'd accuse them of using the picture for nefarious purposes and you'd be right to do so

other laws supersede the claim a victim has no recourse due to something taking place in public
Straw man argument. That's a totally different argument to the one in this conversation/thread.

However this is why the PMB needs to be debated so it's clear on these points
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Last edited by Northerner; 18-06-2018 at 23:26.
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Old 18-06-2018, 23:29   #24
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Originally Posted by Northerner View Post
The wording is shit



Women are totally different people when sober or drunk.

The wording is, as expected ill conceived.
Well that sounds simply that it forms a basis of context. Did the woman consent to someone taking a photograph up her skirt? The case would be determined based on the evidence, for instance if the photo was obscure and looked to be at a contrived angle then it would be reasonable for the prosecution to say that shows the suspect was possibly trying to take the photo in a covert manner. Witnesses may offer up their take on it as well, was the guy acting strangely? Or were they best mates conversing and flirting away and she grabbed his phone to take the photo for him? That's what trials are for. You seem to be arguing against having the very thing you'd want in a possible defence, that the 'victim' consented to the photo in a manner that can be reasonably believed.

If you want a for instance of that reasonable belief; say it's a woman who gets up on a stage at a gig, she flashes her skirt up for some lads and one happens to snap a pic, she goes on to regret later and accuses them of upskirting. The defence would argue her behaviour and demeanour to the people around her was a form of consent, simply put if you get up infront of hundreds of people and flash your knickers, you can't grumble if one of them happens to be taking a picture.

I mean, this sort of stuff isn't as complicated as you're making out, the law isn't half as black and white as you think it is. Proponents of the law, such as police officers who have seen the type of photographs this is designed to criminalise have explained time and time again the whole nature of the photograph is key, they're not interested in accidental pictures, they establish that very easily by just looking at the evidence. In the case of some, they recovered 100s of upskirt photos in the deleted part of the camera roll of a suspect's phone. His defence of it being accidental was clearly a lie. They used that as evidence of sexual harassment as a wider charge, but that was all it hinged on.
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Old 18-06-2018, 23:31   #25
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Straw man argument. That's a totally different argument to the one in this conversation/thread.
Care to explain how it's totally different? Sounds like a completely relevant analogy to me. Or is it just a tough example you're struggling to reconcile?

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However this is why the PMB needs to be debated so it's clear on these points
Even if that were true, the PMB in question wasn't blocked cos of finer points, the MP said himself he hadn't read up about it.
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Old 18-06-2018, 23:46   #26
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so if someone clearly and deliberately photographed your debit card when you had it out to pay, using an elaborate method to obtain a clear shot of it, you'd accept that was ok?

I doubt it, you'd have an absolute fit and want the photo deleted, you'd accuse them of using the picture for nefarious purposes and you'd be right to do so

other laws supersede the claim a victim has no recourse due to something taking place in public
If someone did, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it. They'd need to have the full number, front and rear, to use it online, or if they filmed me using my PIN, they'd also need to obtain the card itself to do anything with it. It would be covered by existing law on theft / fraud or whatever as well.

If someone wanted to take a pic of me when I'm out, it doesn't matter if I like it or not, there's no law against it.

Seems to me this upskirt law is the thin end of a wedge to curtail our freedoms. As if they haven't been curtailed enough already.
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Old 18-06-2018, 23:48   #27
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Bottom line, pardon the pun - if you don't want people looking at your bare flesh, cover yourself up.
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Old 18-06-2018, 23:54   #28
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Bottom line, pardon the pun - if you don't want people looking at your bare flesh, cover yourself up.
but when a woman does LITERALLY THAT with a burka, you're against it?

and you're right, someone pinching your card numbers FRONT AND BACK THEN YOU PENDANTIC ARSE is covered by existing laws

thats my whole point that certain stuff in public is superseded by other laws

you're all over the place on this one, such a weird thing to try and defend, lol at curtailing freedoms to not be allowed extremely specific and contrived photography up someone's skirt
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Old 19-06-2018, 00:16   #29
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I didn't say women should cover themselves up to that absurd extent. You know there is a happy medium between walking round in a bin liner, and wearing a mini skirt and then complaining that men can see the tops of your legs.
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Old 19-06-2018, 00:18   #30
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FWIW I think men who take those sort of upskirt pics are creepy fuckers and such pics have little appeal for me anyway, but women could take a bit of responsibility.
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