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Old 16-03-2018, 10:18   #121
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Sky News...

"Jeremy Corbyn again refuses to directly blame Russia for Salisbury poison attack"

What exactly is wrong with refusing to blame somebody when there is no evidence?
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:29   #122
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Interesting article that casts doubt on the validity of the UK's claim to have so quickly identified it as Novichok (and other doubts)...

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...raqi-wmd-scam/
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:31   #123
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Quote:
The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) is a UN body based in the Hague.

Given that the OPCW has taken the view the evidence for the existence of “Novichoks” is dubious, if the UK actually has a sample of one it is extremely important the UK presents that sample to the OPCW. Indeed the UK has a binding treaty obligation to present that sample to OPCW. Russia has – unreported by the corporate media – entered a demand at the OPCW that Britain submit a sample of the Salisbury material for international analysis.
So Russia is following UN rules... UK is not.
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:32   #124
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Originally Posted by Malcolm Tucker View Post
The PM was briefed by MI5/MI6/GCHQ/Armed forces and the police on what evidence they have so far, which as far as we've been told show it is Russia beyond reasonable doubt. I'm not sure if that evidence has been shared with our NATO allies as well or not, possibly.

Obviously we can't comment on that evidence itself as it's highly classified. The PM, home secretary and some other cabinet members will have seen it. It is unknown at this stage if Larry the cat has been briefed as well.

If the point is that the intelligence services fucked up with Iraq, therefore this is probably bullshit too, then ok, but then all of this is a bit moot, it's going to be impossible to for you to be convinced of anything else now anyway because the scepticism is so high and the trust so low. I'd go as far as to say that even if they arrested a suspect who allegedly administered the agent, who has links to the Kremlin and even confesses he was sent by his country, you'd probably say it was a patsy, or something.

As for not handing over the samples to Russia etc, I don't know why we haven't. I have literally no understanding of chemical nerve agent samples and their handling in order to know if this is a realistic or fair request by Russia. For all I know, and you, there may be a very good reason why we shouldn't comply. Unless I'm missing something and you can enlighten me on why and how it should be done?
Remember when Colin Powell went to the UN with the vial to make his speech about Iraq's WMDs? And the dodgy dossier? The US partly relied on 'evidence' from British intelligence, which was later found to be complete bullshit.

It puzzles me that you know the government lies about the EU or a multitude of other things, but on defence you apparently think they are suddenly trustworthy?

The way it worked in Iraq was the government (I don't just mean Labour, I mean the whole apparatus of government) decided Saddam had to go. They then concocted 'evidence' to make this happen. We COULD be seeing the exact same thing again with regards to Putin.
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:44   #125
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Originally Posted by capitalist View Post
What exactly is wrong with refusing to blame somebody when there is no evidence?
Nothing, but you keep saying 'no evidence' but that's because you're not privy to it. You're not allowed to see JIC intelligence.

So even though you haven't actually seen it, if you nevertheless want to assert the evidence is bullshit or fake, then fine, but kinda shuts down even talking about any of this because you're coming from a place where you've already made up your mind and want the alternative explanation to be the real one, probably because they're always more interesting.
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:52   #126
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Why won't the UK even give Russia (the accused party) the evidence? Or the UN?
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:53   #127
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So the government is doing it as a grand conspiracy, but also completely incompetent?

Both you and enoch are doing that thing where if I don't agree with one POV, it must mean I believe the exact opposite. I don't believe it is 100% true and May deserves unconditional trust and support, but at the same time I haven't been given enough reason to say it's bullshit either. Trite comparisons to Iraq aren't evidence, and like I said, it can't undermine everything, forever, otherwise you may as well just use it for every thing a government ever does or says, presumably a Corbyn government too?
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:54   #128
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We aren't going to hand over samples to the Russians. It needs to go to the independent body (The OPCW apparently). Apparently this has now been agreed.
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:55   #129
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Obviously I'm not expecting them to reveal the formula of the nerve agent, or mention any names of informants and suchlike, but they could and should give us SOMETHING to hint at Russia's guilt before judge/jury/executioner has decided they are guilty.
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Old 16-03-2018, 10:57   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Tucker View Post
So the government is doing it as a grand conspiracy, but also completely incompetent?

Both you and enoch are doing that thing where if I don't agree with one POV, it must mean I believe the exact opposite. I don't believe it is 100% true and May deserves unconditional trust and support, but at the same time I haven't been given enough reason to say it's bullshit either. Trite comparisons to Iraq aren't evidence, and like I said, it can't undermine everything, forever, otherwise you may as well just use it for every thing a government ever does or says, presumably a Corbyn government too?
I don't know the truth either to be honest, but I'm not going to believe the government just because they say it's true, when in this instance, Russia seem happy and open to the idea of a non-biased investigation and the UK seem hostile to it.
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