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Old 28-12-2015, 13:49   #151
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Originally Posted by Enoch Powell View Post
Sounds like weasel words. You have a habit of needlessly complicating the simple. And a refusal to acknowledge obvious truths, like: a bad situation can make someone rationally feel depressed. Why this obvious truth is contentious with anyone, is a mystery. Most people just accept it, as being obviously correct.
I'm not sure about that - there's a distinction between unhappiness and depression.

I think that a person is able to be rationally unhappy, but I think that (I'm not sure) depression is either going to have irrational elements or that depression is far more about being unhappy with oneself - which is potentially subjective because it relies on interpretation of identity.

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I don't know. But you are moving the goalposts by moving onto a different question.
I've provided an example

We're talking about mind and emotions here, the discussion isn't going to be clear cut.
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Old 28-12-2015, 13:57   #152
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I think that (I'm not sure) depression is either going to have irrational elements or that depression is far more about being unhappy with oneself - which is potentially subjective because it relies on interpretation of identity.
And that I fundamentally disagree with, in fact it pisses me off.

Why? Because it is a variation of the 'nothing is wrong with your situation. YOU are the problem. YOU are WRONG to feel depressed about your situation. The situation is FINE. It's YOU who needs to change, to learn to LIKE your situation." That's utter bullshit.

It only wouldn't be bullshit if the situation genuinely was fine (say, you had a full larder of good food, but were depressed about starving to death due to lack of food - that would be irrational, and the problem WOULD be you, not the situation).

Take a situation where someone is being harassed and threatened for example. They are being subjected to these unpleasant things, and let's say they can't make it stop, or move away because they can't afford it. They feel depressed, and in their opinion, it is rational to feel this way. They may see a therapist, or psychiatrist, who AGREES it is entirely rational. Then YOU come along and say now now, hang on. He feels depressed. But depression is based on emotions, it isn't rational. The problem isn't his situation, it's himself.
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Old 28-12-2015, 14:00   #153
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Depression isn't a synonym for unhappiness. Unhappiness can be an entirely rational response to ones circumstances. But depression as a clinical condition is different. There are plenty if cases, for example, where people who have superficially happy lives suffer from it.
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Old 28-12-2015, 14:01   #154
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And that I fundamentally disagree with, in fact it pisses me off.

Why? Because it is a variation of the 'nothing is wrong with your situation. YOU are the problem. YOU are WRONG to feel depressed about your situation. The situation is FINE. It's YOU who needs to change, to learn to LIKE your situation." That's utter bullshit.

It only wouldn't be bullshit if the situation genuinely was fine (say, you had a full larder of good food, but were depressed about starving to death due to lack of food - that would be irrational, and the problem WOULD be you, not the situation).

Take a situation where someone is being harassed and threatened for example. They are being subjected to these unpleasant things, and let's say they can't make it stop, or move away because they can't afford it. They feel depressed, and in their opinion, it is rational to feel this way. They may see a therapist, or psychiatrist, who AGREES it is entirely rational. Then YOU come along and say now now, hang on. He feels depressed. But depression is based on emotions, it isn't rational. The problem isn't his situation, it's himself.
Sounds like you're rejecting any explanation that would involve you taking responsibility for your own circumstances.
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Old 28-12-2015, 14:02   #155
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Old 28-12-2015, 14:07   #156
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And that I fundamentally disagree with, in fact it pisses me off.

Why? Because it is a variation of the 'nothing is wrong with your situation. YOU are the problem. YOU are WRONG to feel depressed about your situation. The situation is FINE. It's YOU who needs to change, to learn to LIKE your situation." That's utter bullshit.

It only wouldn't be bullshit if the situation genuinely was fine (say, you had a full larder of good food, but were depressed about starving to death due to lack of food - that would be irrational, and the problem WOULD be you, not the situation).

Take a situation where someone is being harassed and threatened for example. They are being subjected to these unpleasant things, and let's say they can't make it stop, or move away because they can't afford it. They feel depressed, and in their opinion, it is rational to feel this way. They may see a therapist, or psychiatrist, who AGREES it is entirely rational. Then YOU come along and say now now, hang on. He feels depressed. But depression is based on emotions, it isn't rational. The problem isn't his situation, it's himself.
Okay, I can see why you've come to that conclusion and that's not where I was going and not what I was saying.

I'm saying that a person, if they believe they are depressed, should examine how they feel that their situation reflects on themselves. How that person feels about themselves due to their environment.

That's not to say that this will change the way a person feels, but once they examine the exact mechanics of the problem they may wish to make changes.

Not every situation has a single conclusion, and if a person understand how a situation makes them reflect on their identity, they may wish to make changes in other parts of their life that would compensate for negative feelings.

They may also find that just talking about themselves makes them feel different.
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Old 28-12-2015, 14:07   #157
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Old 28-12-2015, 19:51   #158
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Old 29-12-2015, 06:57   #159
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Stag, do you believe emotions are rational?

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EMOTIONS ARE EMOTIONAL, THEY'RE A CONSEQUENCE OF HOW YOU "FEEL" NOT HOW YOU RATIONALISE

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I know what you are saying. However, it is also somewhat based on a false premise isn't it? It seems to presuppose that whatever you are doing right now is wrong, or insufficient, you aren't living your life (at all, or in the right way, or properly, or enough, or whatever) and 'should' be doing 'something else' instead. So it's a variation on the 'you're wrong' theme. You might ask, what am I doing wrong?
You tell me, but if being at home makes you feel miserable, I'd suggest leaving it as often as possible?

Gaming is a weapon of mass distraction, the opium of a new generation.

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And the respondent may say, basically, 'you should be doing something else, just because.' 'Just because what? Why should I do this other thing, that you say I must do? What if I don't want to? What is the point? What is the purpose, the goal? To make those people who disapprove of me, approve? But who am I living for, myself or for them?'
Forget about other people, you need to do what's best in YOUR mind. That said other people can offer perspective and opinions that could help.

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Do you worry (for example) about playing video games 'too much' because YOU think it's bad, or because you know other people would think this, or do think this, and you feel guilty because of what they think, or what society thinks?
I don't worry about it, but I am cognisant of the fact I am a 31 year old man, of above average intelligence that has been guilty of repeating the habits of my teenage self. Living in comfort, not taking any risks I embodied the "last man" of Nietzsche's conception. I know I can be more than I am, and that as much as I enjoy gaming I did it to excess because I lacked a deeper level of self-actualisation.

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They would think you should get a job instead - that would be more worthy. But do you need to care what other people think?
I care little what others think, but that's not to say I totally ignore them. I guess I consider how people think, but ultimately I am awake enough to put my own judgement above theirs.

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Old 30-12-2015, 20:22   #160
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_nihilism
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